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Nattily dressed anarchists on bicycles 3 years 80 days agoEdited Mount Seymour wrote:No, if you're a vegan, you will in fact die. [marches around the RMB with "Entropy Kills!" picket sign] Einswenn wrote:There's no such thing as "grow up" when it comes to naturally sensitive people. I am not one of such but I do know many of different age. It's not about mental maturity. It's the same as your ability to tolerate pain on different level than the others, but with moral/mental triggers/irritators instead. I got what you mean but I couldn't help resist to reply to it. I suppose seeking the assistance of qualified professionals to deal with anxeity or related issues is part of "growing up." I can see how my specific phrasing might have seemed dismissive, but I stand by the general notion. Speaking as someone who's done the panic attack thing at work/in public more than once. Uan aa Boa wrote: Don't you miss bacon? Do you eat fish? Where do you get your protein? Why are vegans so judgmental? What are your shoes made of? I tried going veggie once but I only lasted a week. Would you eat meat if you were starving? If everyone went vegan farmers would go out of business/what would happen to all the animals? Do you take a vitamin supplement? What about vitamin B12? What does vegan cheese taste like? Did you know that plants feel pain/bread actually has meat in it/humans are naturally omnivores? I don't agree with PETA. Don't you think humans are more important than animals? If you had a dog would you make it vegan? An Internet quiz! No, no, food, people suck, rubber and leather, cool, yes, ok/probably not replaced, no, yes (like almost everyone else in the industrialized "first world"), crap, probably don't/mine doesn't/true but not entirely relevant, great, depends, probably not. Uan aa Boa wrote: While The Cypher Nine likes to see some missionary fervour, to be honest I don't really have the energy. I've found hosting a vegan/vegetarian meal to be highly effective in at least convincing people they won't immediately die. A lot of the time, they actually like it. Although I'm just following Isa Chandra's recipe's most of the time. http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/971512344 Uan aa Boa wrote: Lentils are a path to many abilities, some of them considered... unnatural. [stumbling walk] Beans....BBBEEEAAAANNNSSSS! Imperium helvetiorum wrote:Only tangentially related, but I sometimes wonder why it is okay for us to eat livestock meat but not meat prepared from cats, dogs, et cetera. People often say that it's somehow cruel to eat cat/dog/etc meat, and I somewhat agree with the sentiment, but why are farm animals any different? (For the record, I'm not a vegan.) Cats and dogs have been accepted into the human social group, originally for their utility (hunting, guarding, killing pests, etc). At no point hundreds of thousands of years ago did cows start following humans around while providing precisely the same utility, so that particular variety of domestication didn't occur. It probably helps that cats and dogs are socially sophisticated in a way that cows are not, which is to say that humans, cats, and dogs don't herd in precisely the same way cows do. Of course, if avoiding unnecessary suffering on the part of any animal capable of experiencing it is ethically important, then none of this is particularly relevant. The Cypher Nine wrote:Cats and dogs are much more intelligent and thus have a greater degree of suffering than most farm animals theoretically. Killing of pigs is abhorrent though, thats like slaughtering a small child. Intelligence and suffering are tangentially related, at best. Again, we can go to certain IRL trolley problems to demonstrate that it can be ethically permissible to favor one individual/group over another, even if both are equally intelligent. Don't confuse sapience with sentience. Such confusion is probably the origin of speciesism. The Cypher Nine wrote: Perhaps IQ is not a factor, but certainly awareness which is tied in someways to IQ. IQ is racist and economically tone-deaf statistical chicanery that needs to go away. Terrabod wrote:The criteria for which animals can suffer is essentially whether we can anthropomorphize them or not. More likely, it whether the animal in question can be reasonably expected to experience pain, anticipate it, and take active measures to avoid it. The ability to anticipate and prepare for future eventualities helps. Such non-humans share characteristics with humans, sure, but that's not particularly surprising given how evolution works. Frieden-und Freudenland, Mount Seymour, Ruinenlust, Lord Dominator, and 5 othersCanaltia, Imperium helvetiorum, Middle Barael, Nation of ecologists, and Garbelia

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Nattily dressed anarchists on bicycles 3 years 80 days agoEdited

Mount Seymour wrote:

No, if you're a vegan, you will in fact die.

[marches around the RMB with "Entropy Kills!" picket sign]

Einswenn wrote:

There's no such thing as "grow up" when it comes to naturally sensitive people. I am not one of such but I do know many of different age. It's not about mental maturity. It's the same as your ability to tolerate pain on different level than the others, but with moral/mental triggers/irritators instead. I got what you mean but I couldn't help resist to reply to it.

I suppose seeking the assistance of qualified professionals to deal with anxeity or related issues is part of "growing up." I can see how my specific phrasing might have seemed dismissive, but I stand by the general notion. Speaking as someone who's done the panic attack thing at work/in public more than once.

Uan aa Boa wrote:

Don't you miss bacon? Do you eat fish? Where do you get your protein? Why are vegans so judgmental? What are your shoes made of? I tried going veggie once but I only lasted a week. Would you eat meat if you were starving? If everyone went vegan farmers would go out of business/what would happen to all the animals? Do you take a vitamin supplement? What about vitamin B12? What does vegan cheese taste like? Did you know that plants feel pain/bread actually has meat in it/humans are naturally omnivores? I don't agree with PETA. Don't you think humans are more important than animals? If you had a dog would you make it vegan?

An Internet quiz!

No, no, food, people suck, rubber and leather, cool, yes, ok/probably not replaced, no, yes (like almost everyone else in the industrialized "first world"), crap, probably don't/mine doesn't/true but not entirely relevant, great, depends, probably not.

Uan aa Boa wrote:

While The Cypher Nine likes to see some missionary fervour, to be honest I don't really have the energy.

I've found hosting a vegan/vegetarian meal to be highly effective in at least convincing people they won't immediately die. A lot of the time, they actually like it. Although I'm just following Isa Chandra's recipe's most of the time.

http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/971512344

Uan aa Boa wrote:

Lentils are a path to many abilities, some of them considered... unnatural.

[stumbling walk]

Beans....BBBEEEAAAANNNSSSS!

Imperium helvetiorum wrote:

Only tangentially related, but I sometimes wonder why it is okay for us to eat livestock meat but not meat prepared from cats, dogs, et cetera. People often say that it's somehow cruel to eat cat/dog/etc meat, and I somewhat agree with the sentiment, but why are farm animals any different? (For the record, I'm not a vegan.)

Cats and dogs have been accepted into the human social group, originally for their utility (hunting, guarding, killing pests, etc). At no point hundreds of thousands of years ago did cows start following humans around while providing precisely the same utility, so that particular variety of domestication didn't occur. It probably helps that cats and dogs are socially sophisticated in a way that cows are not, which is to say that humans, cats, and dogs don't herd in precisely the same way cows do.

Of course, if avoiding unnecessary suffering on the part of any animal capable of experiencing it is ethically important, then none of this is particularly relevant.

The Cypher Nine wrote:

Cats and dogs are much more intelligent and thus have a greater degree of suffering than most farm animals theoretically. Killing of pigs is abhorrent though, thats like slaughtering a small child.

Intelligence and suffering are tangentially related, at best. Again, we can go to certain IRL trolley problems to demonstrate that it can be ethically permissible to favor one individual/group over another, even if both are equally intelligent.

Don't confuse sapience with sentience. Such confusion is probably the origin of speciesism.

The Cypher Nine wrote:

Perhaps IQ is not a factor, but certainly awareness which is tied in someways to IQ.

IQ is racist and economically tone-deaf statistical chicanery that needs to go away.

Terrabod wrote:

The criteria for which animals can suffer is essentially whether we can anthropomorphize them or not.

More likely, it whether the animal in question can be reasonably expected to experience pain, anticipate it, and take active measures to avoid it. The ability to anticipate and prepare for future eventualities helps.

Such non-humans share characteristics with humans, sure, but that's not particularly surprising given how evolution works.

Frieden-und Freudenland, Mount Seymour, Ruinenlust, Lord Dominator, and 5 othersCanaltia, Imperium helvetiorum, Middle Barael, Nation of ecologists, and Garbelia

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