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The Dictatorship of Nanbao

Vicenti wrote:Possibly his point is this, one who focuses so much on social issues will eventually forget about economic issues. You see this in America today. The economy has so many problems but Americans are fighting about what one does in their personal life. We get so engrossed in the “culture wars” that we totally forget the social policy is only one half of the story.

Though I must admit his post came of as kind of…odd to say the least. But if my suspicions prove to be correct I do believe Jishuin is from a different culture than western culture, so bear that in mind that there might be a cultural difference here. In some parts of the world social values never change (take Russia or China for example) but here in western countries our culture constantly evolves with changing times and circumstances. I can’t speak for them specifically, but it should be noted that people are not going to hold a value universally which might explain that post.

Right and I understand his point, but it seems like he thought that focusing on social issues is an inherently bad thing, we can’t exactly expect a socialist government overnight… and with conservatives winning more political ground in the US i believe getting small but gradual victories over them is key, with socialism being the end goal

The Retro-Futuristic Starship of New Astri

Vicenti wrote:Possibly his point is this, one who focuses so much on social issues will eventually forget about economic issues. You see this in America today. The economy has so many problems but Americans are fighting about what one does in their personal life. We get so engrossed in the “culture wars” that we totally forget the social policy is only one half of the story.

Though I must admit his post came of as kind of…odd to say the least. But if my suspicions prove to be correct I do believe Jishuin is from a different culture than western culture, so bear that in mind that there might be a cultural difference here. In some parts of the world social values never change (take Russia or China for example) but here in western countries our culture constantly evolves with changing times and circumstances. I can’t speak for them specifically, but it should be noted that people are not going to hold a value universally which might explain that post.

It doesn't sound like they were cautioning against forgetting to care about economic issues, it sounds like they were discouraging paying literally any amount of attention to cultural issues. (Also, cultural and economic issues intertwine. Cultural oppression is critical to keeping economic oppression intact, and you can't dismantle economic oppression without also understanding cultural oppression.) No one here is forgetting about economic issues, and the solution to people hypothetically forgetting about economic issues is not to criticize minorities.

We also have plenty of people from non-western cultures in the Bloc who do not subtly advocate for ignoring the struggles of minorities, so frankly, his culture is not an excuse.

The People's Republic of Manchukurun

Vicenti wrote:snip

Depicting countries in the East as socially stagnant would really nail it in for somebody who thought that western leftists all had a white savior complex no?

The Despotic Leadership of 104 Partisans

The Dominion of Ink Cloud

104 Partisans wrote:Ink Cloud REP

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The Libertarian Commune of Vicenti

Nanbao wrote:Right and I understand his point, but it seems like he thought that focusing on social issues is an inherently bad thing, we can’t exactly expect a socialist government overnight… and with conservatives winning more political ground in the US i believe getting small but gradual victories over them is key, with socialism being the end goal

I think the thing the bear in mind is (US only thing here) some social problems can be solved by solving economic ones. It is my opinion, at least on racial issues, that identity politics will prolong solutions. That being said it is a fact that Minorities face challenges, and solutions must be made. However is reparations really the way to go? In my opinion the root cause of Minority problems can be attributed to 3 things, lack of universal education, a out of control pharmaceutical industry, and a lack of incentive to achieve. These apply to all in America. Minorities however, suffer the most due to those 3 things being in existence, and the government has done little to fix them. And by the way, what is the deeper root cause of those 3 things? Prepare for a shocker, Capitalism. This is my point. One could potentially solve racial inequalities, and never touch social matters. Here I only said that the economy needs some mild reforms, I did not even push socialism there. My belief is that a lot of social problems can be attributed to a root cause that exists in the economy.

The People's Republic of Manchukurun

Vicenti wrote:Prepare for a shocker, Capitalism

Nobody is shocked, everyone here knows this

Vicenti wrote:It is my opinion, at least on racial issues, that identity politics will prolong solutions

Yeah you should not just drop that and move on

The Libertarian Commune of Vicenti

Manchukurun wrote:Nobody is shocked, everyone here knows this
Yeah you should not just drop that and move on

I disagree but whatever.

The Dictatorship of Nanbao

Vicenti wrote:I think the thing the bear in mind is (US only thing here) some social problems can be solved by solving economic ones. It is my opinion, at least on racial issues, that identity politics will prolong solutions. That being said it is a fact that Minorities face challenges, and solutions must be made. However is reparations really the way to go? In my opinion the root cause of Minority problems can be attributed to 3 things, lack of universal education, a out of control pharmaceutical industry, and a lack of incentive to achieve. Minorities suffer the most due to those 3 things being in existence, and the government has done little to fix them. And by the way, what is the deeper root cause of those 3 things? Prepare for a shocker, Capitalism. This is my point. One could potentially solve racial inequalities, and never touch social matters. Here I only said that the economy needs some mild reforms, I did not even push socialism there. My belief is that a lot of social problems can be attributed to a root cause that exists in the economy.

Those are all good points, and i wasn’t saying you were pushing socialism, i was saying that Jishuin was, sorry for the misunderstanding… but the thing is socialism isn’t a very widespread belief in the US i think, and again, with conservatives getting more political ground, it’s gonna be even harder to establish economic reforms and socialism

The Retro-Futuristic Starship of New Astri

Vicenti wrote:In my opinion the root cause of Minority problems can be attributed to 3 things, lack of universal education, a out of control pharmaceutical industry, and a lack of incentive to achieve.

Are you saying that minorities are disadvantaged because they're not motivated enough/uneducated/drug addicts..?

The Libertarian Commune of Vicenti

Nanbao wrote:Those are all good points, and i wasn’t saying you were pushing socialism, i was saying that Jishuin was, sorry for the misunderstanding… but the thing is socialism isn’t a very widespread belief in the US i think, and again, with conservatives getting more political ground, it’s gonna be even harder to establish economic reforms and socialism

Socialism is perceived to be widespread but really is not (some Democrats say they are socialist but are not). You have a lot of PRETENDERS…

Also the part about pushing socialism was just a way to emphasize how short sighted Congress is on this issue. The solution is easy to come up with, yet they just sit and talk about ****.

The Military junta of People Republic of Campuc

I am glad to be here around Socialist nations like me
I want to stsrt a career in international politics but only being seen as an apprentice in my old region. I could never really reach status. That is why I basically couped the leader. I hope here to achieved a bigger role in politics. And crush any capitalist wgo try to stop me or so even sneezes in the direction of my nations.

The People's Republic of Manchukurun

Vicenti wrote:I disagree but whatever.

Famously you can build an alliance of the proletariat without trying to solve problems for proletarians. /s

Do you think women who wanted the right to vote should have just had tunnel vision for when the revolution arrives? Apparently focusing on identity politics prolongs solutions

The Dictatorship of Nanbao

Vicenti wrote:Socialism is perceived to be widespread but really is not (some Democrats say they are socialist but are not). You have a lot of PRETENDERS…

Also the part about pushing socialism was just a way to emphasize how short sighted Congress is on this issue. The solution is easy to come up with, yet they just sit and talk about ****.

Hehe, ain’t that the truth?

The Libertarian Commune of Vicenti

New Astri wrote:Are you saying that minorities are disadvantaged because they're not motivated enough/uneducated/drug addicts..?

No, Americans in general are unmotivated. All of those points apply to everyone. My point was that there is an economic solution that is geared towards everyone that does not involve changing social policy at all.

Yeah on second read I can see how that came across as odd. Bad wording on my part.

The People's Republic of Manchukurun

Vicenti wrote:My point was that there is an economic solution that is geared towards everyone that does not involve changing social policy at all... Yeah on second read I can see how that came across as odd. Bad wording on my part.

I appreciate your reconsideration of your wording, but I still do not quite understand how it is that socialism would all on its own end racism, sexism, xenophobia etc., or for that matter how you intend to bring about socialism without building a diverse coalition of people with all sorts of interests

The Libertarian Commune of Vicenti

Manchukurun wrote:I appreciate your reconsideration of your wording, but I still do not quite understand how it is that socialism would all on its own end racism, sexism, xenophobia etc., or for that matter how you intend to bring about socialism without building a diverse coalition of people with all sorts of interests

I do, without identity politics. It is my perspective that identity politics do more to divide like minded souls than they unite them. At its core identity politics pushes something related to a racial identity. My belief is that in almost every case the root cause of minority problems exists in economic circles. An unfortunate truth is the US government did not do enough post segregation to level the field, leaving families in poverty and depression. Knowledge and education however is the clear cut way to climb out of that situation, find a good paying job, and make something of yourself. The burden is on the government to ensure fair equal opportunity, something I believe for profit education can never achieve given how the Johnson, Nixon, Ford, and Carter admins handled the immediate post-segregation period. The policies of those admins doomed minorities to the situation they are in, I’m simply positioning a non-identitarian way of getting minorities on equal footing.

BTW I’m referring solely to racial and women’s issues. Xenophobia and LGBT is another matter, and one that can only be solved socially and culturally.

The People's Republic of Manchukurun

Vicenti wrote:snip

All of that is great, but the racists in charge are white identitarians, if a goal of ours is to end racism (for just this one example), then challenging white identitarians while not centrally acknowledging identity is like playing a match of tennis with a blindfold and both hands behind your back. You lose.

If socialism were in effect tomorrow, what stops the commissars from hating marginalized people?

The Libertarian Commune of Vicenti

Manchukurun wrote:All of that is great, but the racists in charge are white identitarians, if a goal of ours is to end racism (for just this one example), then challenging white identitarians while not centrally acknowledging identity is like playing a match of tennis with a blindfold and both hands behind your back. You lose.

If socialism were in effect tomorrow, what stops the commissars from hating marginalized people?

It depends. I mean how many whites are racist? In my estimation very few, and I would know because I am white. Racism is hard to hide, and in my experience comes out quickly in the form of an n-word or a racist joke. Putting non racists in power is easy, eradicating personal racism is impossible. I’m referring to systematic problems, which are easy to solve. Systematic vs. Personal seems to be where you are getting at and like I said, I have no solutions to racist individuals, only a troubled system.

The Retro-Futuristic Starship of New Astri

People Republic of Campuc wrote:I am glad to be here around Socialist nations like me
I want to stsrt a career in international politics but only being seen as an apprentice in my old region. I could never really reach status. That is why I basically couped the leader. I hope here to achieved a bigger role in politics. And crush any capitalist wgo try to stop me or so even sneezes in the direction of my nations.

you'll find yourself going a lot farther in politics if your goal is to improve the region rather than to gain status

Vicenti wrote:No, Americans in general are unmotivated. All of those points apply to everyone. My point was that there is an economic solution that is geared towards everyone that does not involve changing social policy at all.

Yeah on second read I can see how that came across as odd. Bad wording on my part.

"my suggestion for bringing about social change to help minorities is that we don't change any social policy" is...not a fantastic take at all.

The Libertarian Commune of Vicenti

New Astri wrote:you'll find yourself going a lot farther in politics if your goal is to improve the region rather than to gain status

"my suggestion for bringing about social change to help minorities is that we don't change any social policy" is...not a fantastic take at all.

Your opinion. Mine is mine. Sometimes the solution is not on the surface, sometimes is is not easy to see. Sometimes what appears to be a problem in sector A is actually a problem in sector Z. That is all I am trying to say.

The People's Republic of Manchukurun

Vicenti wrote:snip

What I am trying to get it is that oppression does not end at class. You know that I bet, but you treat them differently nonetheless. Socialism is a refined, scientific process designed to analyze and solve class-based oppression. Science relies on variables and transparent acknowledgement of the facts. Ending racial, or gendered oppression is no different, we must scientifically identify each and every dimension by which they propagate and eliminate them systematically. "Socialism and the rest will just happen" is a surprisingly anti-socialist take in its methodology.

And no I was not just referring to personal racism, but it would not have mattered if I had been. We do things to fix that too. Your average white person is probably less vitriolically racist than in the past, but the reason it changed was not because Mercury was in retrograde or something

The Retro-Futuristic Starship of New Astri

Vicenti wrote:It depends. I mean how many whites are racist? In my estimation very few, and I would know because I am white. Racism is hard to hide, and in my experience comes out quickly in the form of an n-word or a racist joke. Putting non racists in power is easy, eradicating personal racism is impossible. I’m referring to systematic problems, which are easy to solve. Systematic vs. Personal seems to be where you are getting at and like I said, I have no solutions to racist individuals, only a troubled system.

well i will be real with you this demonstrates that you do not understand racism! a white guy estimating that very few white people are racist indicates only that you don't know how to spot racism because you've never experienced it, not that very few of us are racist. racism is in fact wildly prevalent. racism also takes many forms, many of which are quite easy to hide. not every demonstration of racism involves a slur. we don't need "non-racists in power," we need anti-racists, because anything short of anti-racism activism is complacency. calling systematic problems easy to solve is also just frankly absurd. they're deeply entrenched, life-ruining, and will be incredibly difficult to root out.

Vicenti wrote:Your opinion. Mine is mine. Sometimes the solution is not on the surface, sometimes is is not easy to see. Sometimes what appears to be a problem in sector A is actually a problem in sector Z. That is all I am trying to say.

you can't "agree to disagree" your way out of suggesting that the solution to social oppression is to make 0 social change. societal oppression exists because of systematic and interpersonal bigotry. going "but what if we just solved everything economically" only serves to detract from what minorities know will bring social progress. you can't instruct people to just look away from oppression and hope a hypothetical economic revolution magically solves it.

The Libertarian Commune of Vicenti

Manchukurun wrote:What I am trying to get it is that oppression doesn't end at class. You know that I bet, but you treat them differently nonetheless. Socialism is a refined, scientific process designed to analyze and solve class-based oppression. Science relies on variables and transparent acknowledgement of the facts. Ending racial, or gendered oppression is no different, we must scientifically identify each and every dimension by which they propagate and eliminate them systematically. "Socialism and the rest will just happen" is a surprisingly anti-socialist take in its methodology.

And no I was not just referring to personal racism, but it would not have mattered if I had been. We do things to fix that too. Your average white person is probably less vitriolically racist than in the past, but the reason it changed was not because Mercury was in retrograde or something

You seem like a very cynical individual (not an insult BTW, just an observation). You seem to assume the worst, which is understandable on some instances.

The People's Republic of Manchukurun

Vicenti wrote:You seem like a very cynical individual (not an insult BTW, just an observation). You seem to assume the worst, which is understandable on some instances.

Actually I am quite the optimist to people who know me. I am stern because I have been of the mind you are and I was wrong and regretted it

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