I'm doing pretty much the same right now, wish you the best luck on your vegetarianization
So what you're telling me is that we both became ambassadors at around the same time, and then got irl busy at the same time as well? At this rate the embassy with TLA could spontaneously explode and we would only notice after a week or so, hehe
Wait, so The Embassy got invaded and then liberated and everyone forgot to tell me about it?
Aaaaand that concludes the second Weekly Weekend Waking Wombat. See you all next week O7
Why do vegans love to preach so much?
Even if Iím trying to do my best to find any sense in their aggression I still donít get in completely. My thoughts about it would be the very same as I described a bit earlier here in the religion topic: if you believe something is right then do it for yourself, donít disturb the others, especially those who didnít ask for it, with your food ideology.
Iíve been a guest at different vegansí/vegetariansí houses and always acted respectful with snacks and dinners given. But also I was extremely lucky to meet mostly ďgoodĒ vegans whose lifestyle is their own choice. Of course I wouldnít ask for any meat once they invited me for a supper at their home, Ė Iím not insane. And Iíd understand and try to assist if my guest prefers vegan way too unless Iím unrestricted to what I want to have for myself at the same table.
It creates quite difficult issue for me here, and I would really love to hear your, especially vegansí, opinions: How insensitive, rude, or inappropriate of me it is if my guest is vegan and I set my table with vegan food for them, BUT there is meat on my side of the table? I can imagine it could be uncomfortable for the guest to see someone eating meat right in front of them, or am I wrong?
So far I didnít choose meat with my vegan guests at home because I thought I can easily survive without it for the time of hosting those people. But this whole thing feels like vegans have more rights to be respected at the table comparing to meat eaters and there is no clear reasoning for it.
I'm speaking exclusively from my personal experience with vegans online and offline (mostly former). I was lucky to interact directly with the basically nice vegans but I still can't call them be a vast majority [nor minority though].
Vegan responding. I think that it would be better to think about this less in terms of rights and more in terms of good manners. The fact that you're dividing people into groups and feeling one group has more rights than another, and also the way you broach the topic with a bold text (unfounded) generalisation about vegans, suggest that the potential for conflict here is high.
If I were to come into your home as a guest and lecture you about your diet choices or complain about what you decided to eat in my company then you'd be completely justified in not inviting me again. In exactly the same way, if you came to my home and went on about how bad veganism is or complained about rabbit food we clearly wouldn't get on.
That said, if I had a guest who had dietary restrictions I don't share (gluten intolerance maybe) or just didn't like something I like then if it was a small gathering of 4-6 people I'd make one thing that everyone present could share. I'd feel a bit awkward serving different people different things, and it'd be the same if I was served a vegan meal while you had meat yourself. I wouldn't be offended by the presence of the meat - if we went to a restaurant together I'd encourage you to order whatever you wanted - and I wouldn't say anything, but it would seem like the implication was "here's your food, but even as a one-off it's not good enough for me."
If it's a larger gathering, Christmas, a buffet or a barbecue etc then that's different and as long as there's an option suitable for everyone then it's all good. We vegans are actually quite easily impressed and very touched by thoughtful hosts who remember to make allowances for us.
Two other tips. Firstly, if there's a spread on with vegan options available the omnivores sometimes want to try a bit of the (possibly unfamiliar) vegan food. This is friendly and well intentioned, but remember that we can't reciprocate by trying a bit of the meat options. Make sure you leave a decent portion of vegan food for the vegans (and ditto for other dietary requirements). Secondly, don't start the conversation. Every vegetarian is heartily sick of the conversation - the one that starts with someone saying they could easily go veggie and would quite like to do so, except for chicken/bacon/other which they'd miss too much. Oh yes, says the next person. I couldn't live without chicken/bacon/other. Nah, says the third, it's steak/antelope liver/other that I couldn't manage without. Two minutes later everyone's swapping their meat-based fantasies. We hate the conversation.
But hey, dinner parties and restaurants seem like a distant pre-Covid memory. If I had the chance to get out for once I really wouldn't be complaining.
I think in some ways while some may consider it rude I think its entirely aligned with Vegan beliefs that they preach to people regarding meat eating. The same is true with fundamentalists who truly believe you are going to hell. If there is no conviction, I get suspicious about the true motives.
However, obviously judging others like that is often considered rude or inconsiderate but more often than not its simply about being undebateable. The meat eater certainly isnít standing in very solid moral ground and its more an issue of their individual rights to eat the way they choose vs the rights of animals. Its bound to create a strong conflict because in my opinion the meat eater does in fact agree with points the Vegan makes but likes meat so much and eating it is so ingrained in their behavior that its very difficult to admit it.
In any case, I love meat and constantly eat it. Iím aware of the horrific moral implications. But once synthetic real cow meat becomes widely available to consumers eating real cow meat will move beyond individual choice. I donít see how youíd have any leg to stand on not eating it instead at that point unless it tasted disgusting which I doubt.
This is going completely off the topic of veganism, but have you seen the protests in Spain about the jailing of rapper Pablo Hasel? they've gotten pretty violent, and they're very similar to the BLM protests in the US. Its pretty interesting, he was jailed because he criticized the Spanish King in his songs. Hes also a known Basque separatist/nationalist.
Generalisation of people dividing them into groups is extremely natural thing and all this fight for removing labels is ultimately useless because people are different, yet people can be generalised in groups, and people will label others for eternity. There's nothing bad in it at all unless one uses the label in any harmful, bullying way. I personally did generalised and will generalise people based on certain groups' behaviour, preferences, qualities, patterns, and traits.
However, moving on:
This is what I wanted to hear, thank you. While discussing it with others I heard some people sharing these thoughts: if you meet with a vegan mate at a restaurant, would it be okay if you order main dish having meat or would it rather be more convenient to limit yourself with, say, salad and desserts. What you said is logically correct to me, besides once at a restaurant each pays for their own set of dishes.
I do also agree with the part where one shan't start the conversation first. My examples of aggressive vegan preachers is not my fantasy or so, you you know it. But in my personal observation from distance basically it was vegans who started to comment on others' diet. I mean me, as someone nonvegan, shouldn't start this topic as well as someone vegan shouldn't answer the questions I didn't ask about their diet.
And lastly, I also do understand that the radicals [in nearly every social culture/subculture/group] are the ones most often heard in public. Whether they're religious fanatics or aggressive vegans, people will still judge the whole group by those most loud & most visible individuals. And I'll repeat: my personal experience with my vegan hosts and vegan guests is mostly positive, but the topic started with TikTok preacher who could be one of the examples of the "loud & visible" team who has their pretty large platform.
Hello, and welcome! Hope you enjoy it here :)
I've just read into it after hearing about it from you. Did they actually classify his lyrics as "glorifying terrorism"? It sounds very dumb, although I don't think they should've started yet another protest during a pandemic for this, and I don't think it will get him out of jail sooner.
Hope you enjoy your time being here! Also, feel free to contribute to our, what I would say, semi-formal RMB. Thought-provoking topics (at least that's how I view them) are often brought up and I think the more voices to be heard, the merrier :)
I don't know if I'm a rare minority, but I don't see the whole "animal products" thing as all-or-nothing. I think there's a happy medium where people who don't want to use animal products can do so but animals are raised in a humane and sustainable way (sustainable regarding land use, water use, emissions etc). I'm fortunate enough to live in a place where farming is at the heart of many small communities, and I know that if veganism were compulsory those communities would be destroyed. I think it's fair enough to go after Big Farming because of the way they abuse pesticides and antibiotics, keep animals in inhumane and unsanitary conditions and permanently damage biodiversity of farmland (not to mention the pollution), but when people say that for those reasons all farms should be shut down I see a sort of moral imperialism. Not all farming is done that way, but when you live in a place without close connections to farming communities I can see why all that matters to you is how you feel about the food you see on your plate. It's easy to forget that for many hundreds of years small communities have been raising animals in a sustainable way and that those farming practices are the only thing keeping those communities afloat. I agree that modern faming practices have to change, but "one size fits all" is a really blinkered attitude. I honestly believe we'd be better finding common ground between vegetarians, vegans, environmentalists, small business owners, people concerned about the ethical treatment of animals, people worried about Big Farming steamrolling small communities etc and joining forces to make real and meaningful changes to farming practices that work for all of us.
So I think even without being vegan you can reduce how much meat you eat (especially red meat) for the environment and try locally-sourced produce to support small businesses and local farming communities for the animal products you do use. Oh, and don't be a d*ck about it; making sustainable choices doesn't make you a better person than anyone else.
It's most likely the case of the vocal "why do you hate animals?" militant vegans being the ones you know are vegan, whereas most vegans just get on with their day-to-day lives and don't try to "convert" other people whenever they get the chance. I know one guy who's a vegan and is a total w*nker about it, but the other vegans I know don't make a big deal out of it - any I probably know vegans that I don't know are vegans for that same reason. I'll bet that you also know vegans that you don't know are vegans.
On the w*nker, he's definitely like that because of his wet blanket personality, not because he's vegan.
Exasperated with the social security office today. Since I am officially working as a teaching assistant right now, I am not only eligible, but required to get a social security number.
I needed to fax some documents to the social security office, and they were supposed to call me to arrange an in-person appointment, but of course they haven't. So I called them. The first question: "What's your name, ma'm?" My answer: "(Sigh) Let me spell that for you." (Because it is obviously not Elizabeth White, which you would have understood in a second.) I spell my name letter by letter. "Just a second," the agent chirps. The stupid elevator music starts jingling - and I have already listened to it for 20 minutes before finally reaching this person.
Several minutes later, the elevator music stops. "Ma'm, thanks for holding. I need your name again to check your application file. Can you spell it again for me?" Sigh. I do it again. Not just enunciating the letters, but coding each letter with a US state that starts with the same letter (not N, Mmmmmmm as in Massachusetts). She chirrups "Thanks" and abandons me to the ugly elevator music again, making me think what an unnoticably small but still profound privilege it is to be able to say your name and be understood without having to spell it again and again to the point of embarrassment for both parties.
She tunes back in. "M'am, thanks for waiting, I talked to my manager. Can you come tomorrow at 11am?" I say "No way, I have to teach a lecture." (Actually, it is the lecture of the professor for whom I am TA'ing, but I still have to attend it as the TA, so it is technically not a lie.) She leaves again to consult, but thankfully doesn't put me again on the elevator music. "How about Friday 9am?" she asks. I cannot do that either - I am attending a class at 10.30, and I have no idea how long this 9am meeting would take, including the commute. I don't wanna be late for the class. "How about Wednesday afternoon?" I ask hopefully. "I am free after 1pm?" "I'm sorry m'am, we are processing 200-300 applications this week, there are no free slots." "Oh, uhm, how about next week?" "We cannot make appointments ahead of time (wtf?????) you have to call back again next week then." "Oh, OK, but you know, I am always busy in the mornings, so if you don't have any free afternoon slots for me, it seems impossible that I will ever -"
She hangs up on my face.
I'd suspect the "preachy vegan" is mostly a function of observation bias. That one obnoxious person sticks in the mind, while the crowds all around you eating soy and petting kittens amongst their normal day-to-day activities go largely unnoticed. By way of comparison, the legions of drivers who pass me with extra space or wait patiently behind me at the light rather than try to cram past and/or over me, are not of any concern or notice. But that one arse hose will ruin your day.
The scenario is odd. Presumably, someone being invited to your table is someone relatively valued, so acquiescing to their preferences even at your own "inconvenience" is probably not that big a deal. If it was, the dinner party probably wouldn't be happening to begin with. Even with all the stories I've read on r/aita, I have to wonder how common these Vegan Guest vs. Host showdowns really are.
I've made vegan meals for family who issued no complaint, and I've consumed non-vegan meals without complaint. Speaking for myself, one is permitted to value more than one thing at the same time, frequently by adjusting how important a thing is at a particular moment.
"Carnivores" will call this hypocrisy, but it's actually just being a social animal.
So, don't host vegans then? The issue here isn't really about "meat," so much as it's about social exchange. If normal social exchange is less important than access to meat, well, the question answers itself.
(And that goes for vegans too, btw)
I'm not even a vegan, and the idea that it's the vegans who have "more rights" struck me as very strange. Or, at least, as something someone who has never been to the office potluck would say.
My office is actually very good at incorporating vegan/vegetarian options. Just be sure you're literally first in line at the buffet table, since everyone else will grab the vegan/vegetarian items first, and probably while, as you say, going on and on about bacon the whole time :|
A large and important part of my hosting comes from
I donít have problems with vťganisme itself and I pointed at that quite clearly. I have problems with preaching and aggression. Plus if a situation/scenario looks odd for you it doesnít mean itís impossible. For once again I am writing this: all I am speaking about comes from my personal experience and if there wasnít any scenario I described I wouldnít mention it. My question seems to be unclear so far, but the first reply was more or less answering it. I didnít need to know if the situations are impossible to project, I needed (and still wouldnít mind to read) opinions of vegans on how is it better to act in the scenarios, according to them individually.
Everyone who is reading this: please, donít defend or condemn vťganisme in response to my posts since this is not what I am asking about. You could rather share your opinion on both sidesí behaviour in given situations, that would be precious; thanks.
Cool. Didn't mean to offend, or anything.
I'll just try to echo what seemed to be one of the points of a previous response: it's not really a matter of "sides" in the meat vs. vegan debate, so much as it's about social expectations when being a guest in someone's home. Guests get to say "please" and "thank you" or they can go somewhere else. Likewise, hosts should expect that inviting a person into their home necessarily implies inviting differing ideas and perspectives as well. Vegans who cannot handle this should not be guests, and hosts who cannot handle this should find a new side hustle or whatever.
I'll move along now.
This is what I entirely agree with. But it's too idealistic, unfortunately. I don't know if this is because of unhealthy selfishness of some people or a basic ignorance but sometimes neither hosts nor guests care about each other and get into awkward situations. Basic social expectations and respect are essential while such specific matters as diet are pretty much prickly.
As a non-vegan, I wouldn't mind making and eating only vegan food during the time the guests are at home, the problem would be to know how to prepare meals without using "forbidden" products.
It mostly applies to Couchsurfing customs Iíve experienced. In all the cases the guests were voluntarily cooking vegetarian dishes for themselves (not for the host though) and I just provided all the kitchen kit needed. They always offered to join the dinner though and it didnít feel weird to me to be honest. As for my closer circle of people there are no open vegans so I donít use to let them cook.
Having no vegan/vegetarian friends makes it all be quite exotic for me so thatís why Iím asking the questions above.
My thoughts on the vegan debate as someone who eats meat - I personally always ask when I find out someone is vegetarian or vegan if they mind if I eat meat around them, and Iíve honestly never met one who cared all that much.
ďPreachyĒ vegans do exist, but I think the reason some people have this notion that all vegans are that way is because those people are usually the most vocal about being vegan. In general I believe the majority will respect your dietary choices as long as you respect theirs.
Also, at least for me having a few vegan friends has gotten me to try certain foods I never would have tried on my own, so thatís a bonus. As a kid I had a very limited palate, so discovering I like something new as an adult is always a good experience.
My thoughts: Itís ok to preach but not ok to judge
You are free to go around saying that meat is unethical and unsustainable, and you can actively promote activism, but you should not get angry at people for not being vegans.
You can try whenever possible to explain why veganism in your eyes is good, but you should not make people feel bad about it.
You have a right to promote veganism, you just shouldnít be mean/judgemental about it.
Same goes for Meat-Eaters: you can fully express meat-eating and argue on behalf of it, but donít get all up in everyoneís faces if they do not eat meat.
And as for dinner, if you are cooking for a small group with a vegan and you can afford to cook vegan, then try. If itís too hard or youíve got a big group like at a barbecue, itís ok I suppose to serve meat.
And try not to cook a whole separate big meal for them; an extra dish or two perhaps, but not a full separate meal since then youíre just increasing the food waste which is not sustainable.