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The Northern Kingdom of Einswenn

But why to preach and promote at all instead of just following this way for yourself? Why would I, for example, promote my views on food for the others while I am the only one who deals with my diet directly. And same goes for the others, why would I need to hear them here and there about what is good and what is bad to eat?

It’s hard to preach AND avoid being judgmental. Because by saying “véganisme is good” you’re practically saying “meateating is bad” which may trigger the most sensitive ones

The Ecological Federation of Nation of Ecologists

Well, my view on the veganism debate (as a personal hardcore vegetarian) is that while I see the thought that you don't want to harm animals, that can simply be solved with increasing animal rights and welfare, and adopting vegetarianism. Humans do need some sort of animal product to live (we are omnivores), but that doesn't necessarily have to come from killing the animal thats all. Oh, and those people who want everyone to be vegan are entirely wrong, veganism if adopted nationwide would destroy many industries and farms, so vegetarianism is a better way anyhow.

Nattily dressed anarchists on bicycles

Einswenn wrote:

It’s hard to preach AND avoid being judgmental. Because by saying “véganisme is good” you’re practically saying “meateating is bad” which may trigger the most sensitive ones

I tried having no opinions whatsoever once. It went poorly.

People triggered by mere difference of opinion probably need to grow up.

The Community of Dark Chocolate Enthusiasts

Einswenn wrote:Because by saying “véganisme is good” you’re practically saying “meateating is bad” which may trigger the most sensitive ones

I definitely don't think vegans are at fault if some random is offended by such things. I totally believe they should be allowed to promote and talk about veganism. Who knows, perhaps some people never heard of it and would like to try it out.

The Green Technocracy of Uan aa Boa

Nation of Ecologists wrote:Humans do need some sort of animal product to live (we are omnivores)...

This is simply not true, as evidenced by vegans not dying.

Nation of Ecologists wrote:...but that doesn't necessarily have to come from killing the animal thats all.

Milk and eggs are only produced by females, and reproduction in necessary for lactation. Male chicks and calves do not live out their natural lives, and females too old to be economically optimal don't receive a pension.

Nattily dressed anarchists on bicycles

Uan aa Boa wrote:This is simply not true, as evidenced by vegans not dying.

But protein bro...

...is so trivially easy to acquire on something like a lacto-vegetarian diet, I'm actually wondering why my kidney's aren't totally solid stones by now. My daily calorie burn probably helps, but still not a doctor, etc. I'd suspect that cutting that lacto- bit out and going vegan would bring it down to daily recommended values with no additional effort.

Dried fruits, legumes, nuts, dark leafy greens, other dark green vegetables, and whole grains for iron. Archea/Bacteria farming for B12 (for everyone in any "first world" location, btw, not just vegans...).

Basically, cut out the meat and eat a varied diet of many remaining types of food in sufficient quantity to cover daily calorie burn, and everything else is almost automatic (which is the benefit of that omnivore thing).

Consult a dietician/physician, of which I am neither, etc.

The Holy Easter Tribe of Simbolon

Uan aa Boa wrote:This is simply not true, as evidenced by vegans not dying.

I'm upset that I laughed unnecessarily hard while reading this..

The Grand Duchy of Rivienland

Just wanted to say hello to everyone! It has been awhile, and I hope everyone is well.

The Democratic Republic of Sove Pow

Einswenn wrote: It creates quite difficult issue for me here, and I would really love to hear your, especially vegans’, opinions: How insensitive, rude, or inappropriate of me it is if my guest is vegan and I set my table with vegan food for them, BUT there is meat on my side of the table? I can imagine it could be uncomfortable for the guest to see someone eating meat right in front of them, or am I wrong?

So far I didn’t choose meat with my vegan guests at home because I thought I can easily survive without it for the time of hosting those people. But this whole thing feels like vegans have more rights to be respected at the table comparing to meat eaters and there is no clear reasoning for it.

As a vegetarian, it's probably best that you don't cook meat at all if you were to host me. With an exception for extreme diets, where the list of someone eats is smaller than whatever they can't eat, you should center whatever it is your cooking to the most restricted diet. It's simply the polite thing to do.

On the other hand, outside of your home, it's okay to eat meat in front of me.

The Concordant Stratum of The Cypher Nine

Nation of Ecologists wrote:Well, my view on the veganism debate (as a personal hardcore vegetarian) is that while I see the thought that you don't want to harm animals, that can simply be solved with increasing animal rights and welfare, and adopting vegetarianism. Humans do need some sort of animal product to live (we are omnivores), but that doesn't necessarily have to come from killing the animal thats all. Oh, and those people who want everyone to be vegan are entirely wrong, veganism if adopted nationwide would destroy many industries and farms, so vegetarianism is a better way anyhow.

Because if I believe that you are participating in immoral acts its not enough to just not do them myself I must also convince you to give up on your ways. You know who else made the same argument you are? Slave owners. “Oh no what will happen to our economy?” Well, maybe you shouldn’t have based your economy on something horrific and immoral?

Humans weren’t always meat eaters either btw.

The Most Serene Eco-Republic of Middle Barael

Rivienland wrote:Just wanted to say hello to everyone! It has been awhile, and I hope everyone is well.

Oh you’re back! I remember that RP you started all those months back, it was fun! I’m glad that you were able to take some time off from NS and focus on real life matters, but I’m also glad to have you back!

The Grand Duchy of Rivienland

Middle Barael wrote:Oh you’re back! I remember that RP you started all those months back, it was fun! I’m glad that you were able to take some time off from NS and focus on real life matters, but I’m also glad to have you back!

Thanks! Yea, I was sad that it didn't pan out, but at least we got acquainted then! And, its cool to see your nation has developed more while I was gone :)

Nattily dressed anarchists on bicycles

The Cypher Nine wrote:Because if I believe that you are participating in immoral acts its not enough to just not do them myself I must also convince you to give up on your ways. You know who else made the same argument you are? Slave owners. “Oh no what will happen to our economy?” Well, maybe you shouldn’t have based your economy on something horrific and immoral?

I was going to go into how the simile to human slavery doesn't work since it implies that humans and non-humans are necessarily of equal ethical status, which probably isn't a tenable position. To be fair, when put under stress, the claim that all humans are of equal ethical status doesn't really hold up either (IRL trolley problems, like mass casuality triage decisions and the like, are the go to example). At the very least, opposition to grotesque animal abuse doesn't actually require such equality anyway. But I'll have to get my copy of Singer out, and Deus Ex: Human Revolution is almost finished loading, and I've only got an hour to play, and I'll probably not convince anyone anyway, so.

edit: I quit early to tl;dr it - rubbing shampoo into a rabbit's eyes to test irritability, or electrifying the floor of a dog's cage to scientifically determine that it dislikes pain, is unethical. Killing a chicken to feed multiple hungry humans, in the absence of any alternative, or testing a viable treatment for a fatal disease on a monkey first, probably isn't. A consequentialist approach will probably be required to accept these statements.

The Planetary Alliance of Jutsa

I'd like to note that I'm voting for condemning Lily for political reasons and not because it's a well-written proposal.

I'll admit I did not read the proposal.

The Pacific Alpine Commonwealth of Mount Seymour

Uan aa Boa wrote:This is simply not true, as evidenced by vegans not dying.

No, if you're a vegan, you will in fact die.

The Green Otter's State of Garbelia

Jutsa wrote:I'd like to note that I'm voting for condemning Lily for political reasons and not because it's a well-written proposal.

I'll admit I did not read the proposal.

I think there are going to a lot of badly-written SC proposals that are quick-writes to get on the back of the Embassy invasion. About half the queue is 'Repeal Liberate The Embassy' or 'Condemn ___', they were involved in the raid.

Basically, it's people wanting one of those shiny badges, and using The Embassy to do it.

The Northern Kingdom of Einswenn

Nattily dressed anarchists on bicycles wrote:I tried having no opinions whatsoever once. It went poorly.

People triggered by mere difference of opinion probably need to grow up.

There's no such thing as "grow up" when it comes to naturally sensitive people. I am not one of such but I do know many of different age. It's not about mental maturity. It's the same as your ability to tolerate pain on different level than the others, but with moral/mental triggers/irritators instead. I got what you mean but I couldn't help resist to reply to it.

Dark Chocolate Enthusiasts wrote:I definitely don't think vegans are at fault if some random is offended by such things. I totally believe they should be allowed to promote and talk about veganism. Who knows, perhaps some people never heard of it and would like to try it out.

There's a huge difference between scenario A ("I don't eat meat"; "Oh, why?"; and further explanation) and scenario B ("People should stop eating meat" or "meat is bad" and so on). I wouldn't say anything against the former but I will have problems with the latter. Sharing/enlightening is not equal to preaching and being too vocal.

Uan aa Boa wrote:This is simply not true, as evidenced by vegans not dying.

Sorry but this is not an evidence, especially in such largely populated world. There are a lot of things not dying for centuries and doesn't mean they must be widespread adopted.

Sove Pow wrote:As a vegetarian, it's probably best that you don't cook meat at all if you were to host me. With an exception for extreme diets, where the list of someone eats is smaller than whatever they can't eat, you should center whatever it is your cooking to the most restricted diet. It's simply the polite thing to do.
On the other hand, outside of your home, it's okay to eat meat in front of me.

Thanks for sharing! This clarifies my question's matter too, I appreciate it. But as for the outside part, even if you're okay with your counterpart ordering meat dish do you still feel somewhat uncomfortable because of that, if I may ask?

The United Nordic Nation of Kepler-0085

Einswenn wrote:I'm speaking exclusively from my personal experience with vegans online and offline (mostly former). I was lucky to interact directly with the basically nice vegans but I still can't call them be a vast majority [nor minority though].

It's a 50/50

The Green Technocracy of Uan aa Boa

Einswenn wrote:Sorry but this is not an evidence, especially in such largely populated world. There are a lot of things not dying for centuries and doesn't mean they must be widespread adopted.

I think you've misunderstood me. I was responding to Nation of Ecologists's claim that humans need animal produce to live by pointing out that people survive perfectly well on a plant-based diet. I wasn't talking about the persistence of ideas over time or saying anything should be widely adopted.

Einswenn wrote:There's a huge difference between scenario A ("I don't eat meat"; "Oh, why?"; and further explanation) and scenario B ("People should stop eating meat" or "meat is bad" and so on). I wouldn't say anything against the former but I will have problems with the latter. Sharing/enlightening is not equal to preaching and being too vocal.

These issues always get discussed in such absolute terms, as if everyone were demanding that everyone else do the same things they do and wanting to start a debate about it. I'd like your list above to include scenario C ("I don't eat meat." "Oh, why?" "Because I don't want to/It's none of your business/Can I just have my lunch now please?")

Don't you miss bacon? Do you eat fish? Where do you get your protein? Why are vegans so judgmental? What are your shoes made of? I tried going veggie once but I only lasted a week. Would you eat meat if you were starving? If everyone went vegan farmers would go out of business/what would happen to all the animals? Do you take a vitamin supplement? What about vitamin B12? What does vegan cheese taste like? Did you know that plants feel pain/bread actually has meat in it/humans are naturally omnivores? I don't agree with PETA. Don't you think humans are more important than animals? If you had a dog would you make it vegan?

FFS people, this is just what I want for dinner. It's not a fully worked out 800 page philosophical thesis and if you eat meat I don't expect or want you to justify to me why that's OK. In most real life situations if someone asks why I'm vegan I just say that it's a personal thing and hope that none of the above questions come up. While The Cypher Nine likes to see some missionary fervour, to be honest I don't really have the energy.

Mount Seymour wrote:No, if you're a vegan, you will in fact die.

Lentils are a path to many abilities, some of them considered... unnatural.

The Northern Kingdom of Einswenn

Uan aa Boa wrote:These issues always get discussed in such absolute terms, as if everyone were demanding that everyone else do the same things they do and wanting to start a debate about it. I'd like your list above to include scenario C ("I don't eat meat." "Oh, why?" "Because I don't want to/It's none of your business/Can I just have my lunch now please?")

Yes, this scenario is also quite common, I agree. "It's my personal preferences" is a quite nice passive-aggresive polite phrase to display your unwillingness to discuss it any further but you had to clarify you don't eat meat for some obvious reasons.

Uan aa Boa wrote:Don't you miss bacon? Do you eat fish? Where do you get your protein? Why are vegans so judgmental? What are your shoes made of? I tried going veggie once but I only lasted a week. Would you eat meat if you were starving? If everyone went vegan farmers would go out of business/what would happen to all the animals? Do you take a vitamin supplement? What about vitamin B12? What does vegan cheese taste like? Did you know that plants feel pain/bread actually has meat in it/humans are naturally omnivores? I don't agree with PETA. Don't you think humans are more important than animals? If you had a dog would you make it vegan?

I am by your side here, I can't stand such questions myself. Not only about food but in general the questions that are crossing the line of comfort. Being quite direct and maybe harsh in a way when it comes to remind people about inappropriateness of their questions is crucial in my world view, at least it's easy with my low level of empathy and compassion. I personally don't ask people why they don't eat meat [not just because of politeness but also because I don't really care why] but I do need to know they're vegan/vegetarian to avoid awkward situations and possible unintentional triggers for them if I offer some meat by mistake, the same applies to people allergic to some certain goods.

The Cicada Celebration of Ruinenlust

*sees conversation about meat-eating vs. vegetarianism vs. veganism*

What a bunch of n00bz. Some of us *upturned nose* have learned to photosynthesize for ourselves! Pfft!

---

I find that my eating is best described as "vegetarian in effect," in the sense that while I don't seek out meat, don't buy or prepare it at home, etc., I'm not categorically opposed to it, either. It's almost a matter of convenience. So a few times a year, I will happily have a burger or a steak or chicken. Ham is decent for Christmas and Easter, and I love turkey on Thanksgiving. Yet, I will also easily spend appx. 355 days a year without touching or even thinking about the stuff.

Now animal products are different for me. Eggs are my daily breakfast, and I love yogurt and milk. Cheese is awesome, and honey is also good with things. If I had to be vegan, I would be unhappy, but for a meal or a day or whatever, it would be entirely fine.

Overall, though, the main way that I think of my own eating is that it's rather...Spartan? I don't prepare much, I never eat out or buy pre-prepared food, and I only cook a few things. The key for me was to develop a small palette of good, healthy, decent food that I like. I have simple tastes, and food cravings aren't really a thing, except for pizza and stuff like that.

The pandemic has really helped my diet, overall. I haven't gone out; I don't get fast food anymore, I am always eating alone, so I don't have to accommodate or deal with anyone else, and I can eat exactly how much and how often I want, so I seldom overeat. It's a decent place to be, considering that it seems like many people have decided that "pandemic = candy" or "pandemic = alcohol" or something.

But really, it's the photosynthesis. None of this "food" crap. Just sprinkle a bit of nitrogen once in a while, lol...

Imperium helvetiorum

Only tangentially related, but I sometimes wonder why it is okay for us to eat livestock meat but not meat prepared from cats, dogs, et cetera. People often say that it's somehow cruel to eat cat/dog/etc meat, and I somewhat agree with the sentiment, but why are farm animals any different? (For the record, I'm not a vegan.)

The Green Otter's State of Garbelia

Imperium helvetiorum wrote:Only tangentially related, but I sometimes wonder why it is okay for us to eat livestock meat but not meat prepared from cats, dogs, et cetera. People often say that it's somehow cruel to eat cat/dog/etc meat, and I somewhat agree with the sentiment, but why are farm animals any different? (For the record, I'm not a vegan.)

Personally, I think that it is from stereotypes, and the palette people were raised on. For example, some people eat rabbit or duck meat, but others are horrified by the idea because they spent their childhood looking at them in a 'cute' capacity rather than a 'food' capacity.

Just a form of speciesism really.

The Concordant Stratum of The Cypher Nine

Garbelia wrote:Personally, I think that it is from stereotypes, and the palette people were raised on. For example, some people eat rabbit or duck meat, but others are horrified by the idea because they spent their childhood looking at them in a 'cute' capacity rather than a 'food' capacity.

Just a form of speciesism really.

Cats and dogs are much more intelligent and thus have a greater degree of suffering than most farm animals theoretically. Killing of pigs is abhorrent though, thats like slaughtering a small child.

The Unapologetic Feminists of Frieden-und Freudenland

The Cypher Nine wrote:Cats and dogs are much more intelligent and thus have a greater degree of suffering than most farm animals theoretically. Killing of pigs is abhorrent though, thats like slaughtering a small child.

I don't think suffering is related to IQ to be honest.

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